NYU Plays ‘Hide the Ball’ With Employment Data

New York University School of Law has decided to continue withholding valuable employment data from prospective students. After sending NYU a third request to publish its NALP report, we finally received a reply from Dean Ricky Revesz:

Thank you for your note. I expect you are aware that, since the end of last year, we have added a substantial amount of employment data to the NYU Law website. If there is more information that would be suitable and helpful for us to provide, we are happy to consider doing that. For example, we are now looking into posting data of the type found in Table 12 of the NALP form (Source of Job by Employer Type), since that would likely be of interest to prospective and current students. Please let me know if there is additional information that you think would be helpful for us to publish.

Our letter was quite clear about what would be helpful: NYU needs to publish its NALP report. It was a short letter and referenced the NALP report five times. (Read it here.) There is no other way to read any of our three requests and it’s insulting that Dean Revesz would feign ignorance while referencing the very report we requested.

We responded to Dean Revesz, repeating that we believe the entire NALP report should be published and noting what information NYU has not released (along with the sections of the NALP report that contain this information):

  • Full-time and part-time employment by required/preferred credentials (“FT/PT Jobs”)
  • Classification of business jobs (“Business Jobs”)
  • Position held in a law firm (“Type of Law Firm Job”)
  • When the job was obtained (“Timing of Job Offer”)
  • Salaries by job type (“Employment Status Known” and “Employment Categories”)
  • Salaries by location (“Jobs Taken by Region” and “Location of Jobs”)
  • Salaries by firm size (“Size of Firm”)

Dean Revesz’s response to our last communication was disappointing:

As I indicated in my last note to you, we will continue to add data to the area of our website that contains employment statistics.

We must read this to say that NYU has no plans to publish the additional information we have requested, even though it is of value to both the legal profession and law school applicants. The data NYU indicated it was “looking into” publishing 14 months after collection–the source of job by employer type–has not been added to NYU’s website despite more than another month passing. The immense intellectual, technological, and financial resources of NYU have proven unequal to the task of posting an 8×7 table.

(To see the data NYU knowingly withholds, check out our reconstruction of its NALP report in our data clearinghouse. Fields shown in dark gray represent information NYU possess but has not released.)

NYU to Professor Campos: Come at me, bro!

“Having trouble knowing what to believe? We have a proposal for Paul Campos: come audit our numbers. We’ll show you a list of all NLJ 250 firms to which we sent associates in 2010 and 2011. Pick a reasonably sized sample from that group, and compare them to firm-verifiable data. Then let us, and the world, know what you find.”NYU’s Rebuttal

Professor Paul Campos called in to question NYU’s biglaw placement rate, citing a discrepancy between the numbers reported by NYU and by the National Law Journal. NYU’s response was clear:

Come at me, bro!

Something about NYU’s response (I’m a 2008 grad) just didn’t sit right with me. It wasn’t the acerbic tone the rebuttal took. It was that Law School Transparency had already requested NYU be more open about its job placement rates. LST actually made that request twice, and we have renewed that request again today.

Like all-but-six law schools, NYU has in its possession, right now, a NALP report with detailed job placement statistics for the class of 2010. This report contains a wealth of information, including the size of firms students went to work at; salary information for a multitude of categories; if the jobs are full time or part time, permanent or temporary; what states they are in; if the job at a law firm is as a lawyer, a clerk, or a paralegal; if students found the jobs through OCI, a job posting, or went back to work at a pre-law school employer. It paints a very detailed picture of what happened to the class of 2010, but it’s a picture that NYU has decided to not let anyone else see.

That’s what makes NYU’s response to Professor Campos so strange.

NYU professes its openness, its honesty, its transparency. With one hand it extends an offer to verify that things are as it says they are, but with the other hand it folds up the numbers and locks them away. “Come audit our books…. But not those books!”

Having trouble knowing what to believe? We have a proposal for New York University: disclose your numbers. You’ll publish the employment data collected by NALP for the class of 2010 (and for 2011 when you receive that report this summer). Then let us, and the world, know what you already know.

Read the letter after the jump

LST Obtains 34 Class of 2010 NALP Reports

Update: We were alerted that Indiana–Bloomington had made its NALP report available online prior to this story’s publication. We’ve made this correction throughout this story.

Update 2: We apologize to the University of Utah S.J. Quinney College of Law. On February 10th, the school provided LST its NALP report, but we did not include it in this story.

Update 3: To see more schools that have since complied, see here.

On December 14, 2011, we wrote all ABA-approved law school deans to request the class of 2010 NALP report that each school received in June 2011. We are pleased to announce that we have obtained 32 34 of these reports (17.3% of ABA-approved law schools and 17.8% of schools with NALP reports). 29 of the 32 34 law schools sent a report to LST. The other three four were pulled from school websites.

We asked for these reports to help prospective law students find the law schools that best meet their career objectives. Together, these reports provide prospectives access to timely, thorough, and comparable employment information. They make LST’s website an even more valuable source of information for prospective law students. We hope to soon add the employment data contained in the NALP reports to our data clearinghouse. In the meantime, these reports are available here. In addition, the list below links to each school’s NALP report.

Schools Providing the Class of 2010 NALP Report to LST (30):

Non-Responding Schools with accessible NALP Reports (4):


Northern Illinois University

Thomas Jefferson

Indiana — Bloomington

We want to make a special note that six law schools do not submit employment data to NALP and therefore do not have these forms: Notre Dame, Pepperdine, St. Louis, and the three law schools in Puerto Rico. This does not mean that these schools do not have ample employment data, however. Rather, these are the only schools who do not have a prepared form in front of them that can quite easily be disclosed to prospective law students.

Interestingly, the vast majority of schools providing LST with the 2010 NALP reports were public institutions. This may be because these schools interpreted our request as an open records request. Two schools (Wisconsin and UNC) explicitly treated our request in this way.

We received a handful of responses expressly declining to provide LST with the NALP report. Consistent with past communications with law schools, a number of schools indicated that they had meaningful employment information already available on their websites. In almost every case, this was (and remains) false.

In addition, there were two “no” responses that stood out. The full text of the responses is below.

First, Ave Maria argued that its NALP report does not provide meaningful information. Dean Milhizer claimed, “Our school is small with a unique mission, and our employment outcomes are reflective of this.” He suggested that additional information would be needed to assist prospective students. He did not, however, suggest what kind of information would be useful. The school’s website contains little information on what graduates found for work, with much of that information serving to mislead applicants.

Second, Chapman University argued that its report was confidential. Dean Campbell’s response is very misleading. It is true that NALP promises that it will not share the graduate-level data or the reports generated from those data with anyone except the law school. But schools are under no such obligation, either contractually or (for the NALP reports) legally. If it was required to keep the data confidential, Chapman could not provide these employment statistics on its website. Instead, the NALP reports only remain confidential because law schools decline to share them with those who would find the information most useful. Fortunately for prospective students, at least 32 33 schools disagree that the NALP reports are confidential.

Overall, as the Live Transparency Index shows, schools are increasingly sharing more employment information. But the vast majority of law schools still leave critical gaps in their presentation of employment information – gaps which the NALP reports would fill. These 32 34 law schools have demonstrated leadership that is sorely lacking at other law schools. While these schools still need to choose how to share employment information on their websites, they understand the importance of providing free access to comparable information now. Our hope is that these schools pave the way for changes at other schools, many of whom are still acting as if their applicants do not deserve access to comparable consumer information.

Ave Maria School of Law:

Dear Mr. McEntee and Mr. Lynch:

I applaud your efforts to assist prospective law students in obtaining reliable information about the law schools of interest to them. However, Ave Maria School of Law does not believe that its Class of 2010 Summary Report from NALP will provide meaningful information about our school to prospective students. Our school is small with a unique mission, and our employment outcomes are reflective of this. In our judgment, the Summary Report does not provide sufficient information about the types of positions obtained by our 2010 graduates, and so to release the report in a vacuum without additional information would not be of assistance to prospective students.

This year, as in years past, AMSL will comply with NALP’s guidelines on reporting employment outcomes for the Class of 2011, and we will be participating in the ABA’s new annual survey of these outcomes.


Eugene R. Milhizer
President and Dean

Chapman University:

Dear Law School Transparency,

You have requested that our School of Law send you the otherwise confidential report that we supply to NALP. We have years of experience with NALP, and on that basis, we know that the information we send will be appropriately treated, consistent with good ethics and all applicable federal and state laws. Regrettably, we do not have that kind of basis with your organization. Accordingly, we think it is most appropriate to continue to keep our submission to NALP confidential.

Nevertheless, our School of Law maintains a very informative website, and we post a great deal of data on our graduates’ employment there. That information is available to the public, and we invite you to consult this source if you would like.


Tom Campbell